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The very few features CQ needs to not be hated.

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Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.05 20:11:00 - [1] +1 to this A well written and reasoned argument for doing Incarna the way it was originally envisioned. I would add to this that by doing away with the old hanger view and forcing the loading of CQ ,or a still background... CCP is forcing themselves to try to design a feature that appeals to those who want Incarna and would love to use it all the time AND those who hate the very idea of leaving their ships and just want to refit/re-arm as fast as possible AND those who Role Play and care deeply about eve's backstory and lore... ALL at the same time. If you keep the old hanger view, then you don't need to have all the functionality of being in the hanger when in CQ, Thus you Don't need to run to UI's at the same time. Apart from anything else, it is a near universal law that any device/feature that tries to be all things to all people and does everything at once, will be outperformed by separate devices/features that specialise. From that perspective alone I would recommend going with a separate hanger and CQ/Incarna. PS: Please note that in my entire argument I never stated I didn't like Incarna, or That CCP shouldn't do it, That I was worried about performance, Or needed a new pc/graphics card... I DO want incarna, I don't mind change... as long as it's change for the better... for example changing the fittings feature to server side and limiting to only 50 fits was a change... For the worse... You don't have to hate the game or CCP to be able to see that not everything they do they get right, and they do ask for our feedback.... __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.05 20:19:00 - [2] Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 05/06/2011 20:16:48 Originally by: Burn Jita Down [...]I wasn't aware they went back on their word.[...]But yeah they always touted that it would be optional and I assumed it would be.[...] So you can see now why the current state of affairs is not pleasing us ; why Tippia, I, and a lot of others keep talking about it in a mild angry tone. hey I don't get a name drop??? My petition's got to its fifth page now... __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.05 20:46:00 - [3] Originally by: Jacque Cruix Originally by: Akita T Edited by: Akita T on 05/06/2011 20:15:45 So you can see now why the current state of affairs is not pleasing us... and why me and Tippia keep talking about it. I hope you're not so big on yourself that you are saying "us" as the entire Eve player-base, but only the "few" that have decided to complain about this. Nothing can be so annoying than a self appointed "speaker" who thinks they have the pulse of the whole. For your op; if you think about it, CCP has consistently been removing old assets from the game to allow their development time to be more focused on what the majority uses in regard to hardware. Players complaining about this new enviroment requiring newer hardware probably won't get much traction. I support the static load screen that is currently on Sisi, but not retainig the old hanger assets. Players clinging to that are probably simply resisting change and they need to either suck it up or go somewhere else. Eve will always be about change, since there will probably never be an Eve Online II. I refer you to my earlier post in this thread. It is entirely possible to argue convincingly for the keeping of the current hanger view (or use nice shiny new hangers, which would be even better) rather than trying to make CQ do the job of intro into incarna AND do everything the old hanger did so well. Without at any point mentioning performance... although the performance arguments are not without there own merit. Plus on the having separate graphics settings front... It is quite common to turn graphics settings right down for in space if you are expecting a big fleet fight in the near future and don't want to lag out at a crucial moment. However you might want to run Incarna on higher settings as you're not worried about being poded if you lag, plus CQ is atm a solo environment, and in quite a few places the amount of in station traffic is likely to be quite low. So you might want HIGHER graphics settings for in station than in space. As the client doesn't really like changing graphics settings on the fly, it usually likes you to re-log, It makes sense to have separate graphics settings for both incarna and space so that you can move from one to the other without having to change your graphics settings and have both at your desired setting. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.05 21:04:00 - [4] Originally by: Jacque Cruix Originally by: Soden Rah ...It is entirely possible to argue convincingly for the keeping of the current hanger view... Yes, there are probably 20 different ways to implement this. Most players will probably be happy with 17 of those ways. Some would only be happy with a few. But there are also some who would only be happy with "their" way. Part of my argument was about what we as players might want... but a large part, that you ignored, is that its bad design to implement CQ the way they are currently doing it. The fact that in this particular instance good design is safer, more flexible, easier to build and allows the greatest number of people to happily use the feature than the bad design.... actually no that's what good design is all about. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.05 21:08:00 - [5] Edited by: Soden Rah on 05/06/2011 21:08:34 Damn... my eco is better spoken than I am... EDIT: it was better before the edit __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.06 11:21:00 - [6] You still have keeping the hanger view and making CQ separate after docking as optional... However I would say that making CQ do the job of being the hanger and the entry point into Incarna is such bad design that borks not only the docking process but the rest of incarna too, And that the huge extra resources and time needed to make it work, justify making it mandatory too. It's the problem that causes almost all the other problems. A lot of the issues it causes are on CCP's end but the effects are felt by us, saying the very design itself is flawed and makes implementation much harder may sound esoteric, but it manifests itself on our end in reduced content, more bugs, less flexibility, less immersion, slower development cycles, more downtime, and inherently less performance than separate features would provide. For these reasons I would say that the most important thing for CCP to do is to separate out Incarna and the rest of eve by having a disembark button in the normal hanger view. This makes most of the other issues liveable with till they are fixed. And it frees up the Incarna design team to do things with CQ and the rest of Incarna they couldn't do if it has to be able to perform as the hanger as well. Simply being able to run 1 UI instead of two would be a huge step forward. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.06 12:00:00 - [7] At the moment it doesn't have features useful to anybody, due to the fact that the new 3d UI opens up the same old windows that bury CQ and mean you can only really practically use the old Neocom that doesn't get buried. I would suggest adding a proper UI that does stuff actually in the CQ/Incarna environment should be on the list of must have features. As it is CQ is totally useless. (except for entering the NCC which is the only feature you can no longer access from the neocom) __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.08 12:44:00 - [8] Originally by: Akita T How funny that in all this DUST madness (for something that will take almost another year to happen) we forget what is to come in just two weeks from now... Didn't forget about it... just moved discussion out of general ;-) it got a bit too noisy in here. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.11 16:13:00 - [9] Originally by: Taedrin The issue for CCP isn't that it is hard to not delete something. The issue is that it is hard to maintain two sets of code which accomplish the same thing. If they keep both the old and new station environments active in the code at once, that is twice as much testing that needs to be done. Every change in their code now has one more additional thing that they can break, so they have to do all the more QA testing to make sure it doesn't break. IMO, what CCP should do is what they did with the trinity engine release: Temporarily maintain both sets of code, while you give players a chance to upgrade. Schedule the code for deletion, but give players a significant amount of warning before you do so. Several months at least. this only makes sense if you have the Hanger and CQ do the same thing.... But they shouldn't do the same thing. The whole point is that they are trying to make one feature perform to different functions with often mutually contradictory requirements... Take a look at this post for one tiny example. Also this thread deals with the issue. And on the amount of testing needing to be done and such, They will be iterating on space and the in space UI, they will be iterating on Incarna and the In Incarna UI, If the hanger and CQ are separate then those changes don't overlap and don't interfere with each other... If CQ is made to do both then they do overlap and can both affect each other. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.13 19:54:00 - [10] bump, Incarna release is getting close and this thread has good points in it that need addressing. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function

Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.13 23:18:00 - [11] Originally by: Andreus Ixiris I would like to remind everyone in this thread, if you didn't already know, that this expansion will permanently remove the following functionality: - Drag-and-drop ship to main screen to activate a ship - Double-click on main screen to access active ship cargo hold - Right-click on main screen to access active ship drop-down you forgot ship spinning, the ability to drag drop things into ship, the ability to do anything other than peer at your ship from a great distance from the balcony. Have a safe, stable, low CPU/grfx intensive simple easy to use environment upon docking, instead of an unstable, Highest cpu/grfx intensive environment upon docking. It also totally screws those who want Incarna by tying the Incarna UI to the in space UI. So instead of getting a proper UI that works in the environment, and is optimised to work in stations, you get the old UI, that isn't optimised for anything, but is designed for space, and being in hanger, and covers up everything you want/need to see in Incarna with windows. It doesn't matter if you do, or do not, want incarna, or could care less either way. removing the old hanger view and replacing it with CQ is detrimental, both in the short and long terms. In fact it gets worse as time goes on. __________________________________________________ Originally by: CCP Tuxford bugger, I need to have a closer look at this menu function
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.21 23:48:00 - [12] and to add to this... here are three petitions, that every newly disgruntled player should know about... bring back the hanger [Petition] Allow Character recustomiseation without creating Portrait and this still to be fixed longer standing issue [Petition] The Great Ship Fittings Nerf also I recommend checking out the test server feedback forums for more info on what's broken this and this thread are good places to start. -------- By Grfmsv÷tn, Eyjafjallaj÷kull, Vatnaj÷kull, and Hekla itself... THIS is my sig. Support Optional CQ
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.22 02:05:00 - [13] Originally by: Karsa Egivand Originally by: Onyx Nightshine * separate the CQ from the non-CQ graphics detail settings into two completely separate groups which you can set differently That does make a lot of sense. yes, that is why ccp responded to that point like THIS Originally by: CCP Manifest Can we have separate graphics settings for the two totally different environments CQ/Incarna and Hanger/space? Why would this matter to you? You were prefer higher graphics in station and lower ones outside I am guessing? Not a bad idea, but I don't know what goes into programming that sort of thing. -------- By Grfmsv÷tn, Eyjafjallaj÷kull, Vatnaj÷kull, and Hekla itself... THIS is my sig. Support Optional CQ
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.22 02:12:00 - [14] Originally by: Diomedes Calypso once again Akita calls it. You'd almost think they'd use his comments as a start to an internal vetting process prior to release. If they can't reach a 90% consensus internally that the issues he raises are insignificant (with people from other development teams doing the vetting..not those that designed the features) they should postone release or adopt something that meets suggestions somewhere in the middle between original intent and his suggestions. He's not infalliable though.. Akita lost the bet on the mineral price basket before the simialtaneus changes in insurance and mission loot drops . CCP balancing department did manage to pin the drop rates or have sufficient tools in place to make adjustments to make it work. (there were other issues like the rise of mission botting instead of mining botting but still the point is that the doom forcast did not arise.. or perhaps the change encouraged the rat-bot problem?) Well listening and responding to the feedback of the many people who test stuff on SiSi and post in test server feedback would be nice. We may not be as famous as Akita... but we caught a lot of the issues everyone is complaining about up to weeks ago (not had long to actually test on Duality/SiSi.) -------- By Grfmsv÷tn, Eyjafjallaj÷kull, Vatnaj÷kull, and Hekla itself... THIS is my sig. Support Optional CQ
Soden Rah Gallente EVE University Ivy League	Posted - 2011.06.22 22:06:00 - [15] I'm sorry but I can't help it, I keep doing this... (You tube link) Why do you ask? well this post... relevant bit copied below... EDIT: oh and I am obliged to say.... Going into Hanger view on docking instead of CQ still not available... When we get to patch day, and you still haven't fixed this, The mac client still doesn't work, and half your customers get borked every time they dock, the forums explode in a flame war, and you have to roll-back before finally installing the option to load CQ... DON'T say we didn't warn you... They haven't done a roll-back (yet) but the rest seems pretty prescient... BTW if CCP is hiring and would like someone to tell them the right way out of this mess... well you can guess the rest... Pity they don't do more than read the feedback and just carry on anyway. -------- By Grfmsv÷tn, Eyjafjallaj÷kull, Vatnaj÷kull, and Hekla itself... THIS is my sig. Support Optional CQ

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